@Pwnstar said in Anti-Hack/Cheat/Bot:
@islesofurth said in Anti-Hack/Cheat/Bot:
Actually most games keep their security as secret as possible for obvious reasons.
Yes, but in my defense I've been hacking that game for 2 months and haven't been caught.
And with this comment, now you are on the black list. 
@Xzait said in People who buy a founders pack today get more than yesterday:
From your comments, it is pretty obvious you don't want a completely horizontal progression game.
horizontal and vertical progression are so different, it wouldn't be possible to make a game that is half of each.
Oh really.. Of course you can have system where you can progress in both directions, like the first planned ability system is a very good example, few steps vertical and a lot in horizontal. This comment is so absurd, that I would really like to know why it is not possible?
Examining this game from a pure RPG perspective probably isn't the best way to judge this game.
Well I have not judge the whole game, just pointed the possible risks related for pure horizontal character progression.
Yes, it has RPG elements, but it will be missing a few of the core elements for a typical RPG. You won't be levelling up for example, and gaining stats. You wont have typical boss fights or a set story, you make your own story and fight only what you want to. There aren't planned to be many NPC's and the economy will be player driven. It is a completely different game to any typical RPG out there. The only 2 elements this has of an RPG, is that you create and play as a character in a virtual world... and you can kill monsters for materials to craft and use gear. They are the only elements of an RPG that i can think of at least.
Okay, one more time, I have talked about character progression and RPG elements related for that. So I have not talked about the other aspects of the game like storytelling, NPCs, economy...
It seams that you are guiding the coversation to wrong direction, maybe unintentionally, I do not know. In any case you are not getting my point and where my concerns actually points, so there is no reason to continue.
@Yitra said in Anti-Hack/Cheat/Bot:
The more you can do with "ingame" earned money, the more cheating and bots you will see.
This is a good point. Making the game less attractive from cheaters and gold sellers point of view makes things much more easier at first place. It is ofc hard to get totally rid of these guys, but developers can make their life easier with gamedesign. Imo DS has designed well this part and there is not going to be same kind of problems what SBI had, not even close.
Create a closed economy where it is not possible to transfer ingame money between characters will cut down on that.
Hmmmm... This would help for sure, but it would also make trading kind of mess.
@Xzait Actually when I backed there was some vertical progression planned with abilities and that part changed later for example. And you do not actually know much what I want from games, so you should not say anything about that tbh.
It seams that people are dividing progression to two categories, horizontal and vertical, even there can be any kind of combination between these two extremes.
I am trying to point out the risks what horizontal character progression can cause, and I have examined this especially from RPG point of view and what this can mean for longevity of the game.
I know some people are worried about vertical progression, because they want PvP to be as equal as possible. Small vertical differencies does not change that much, simply because what really matters is number of players in parties and how those people are playing together. So, with or without vertical differencies, most of the PvP situations wont be equal or fair anyway. Even in Albion where gear really matters, it is still totally secondary matter in open world.
@Gothix said in People who buy a founders pack today get more than yesterday:
For me vertical progression games feel a bit "lame". People gear up, kill lower geared player and go around bragging how they are pros. Lame...
Horizontal progression game, where everything depends on your knowledge and skill, how you will make you deck and know how to use it... that on the other hand is awesome.
This is why I'm following Fractured MMO. Because it's going in this direction.
But now you are giving an example where gears have a huge power gap. I have not seen here a single person who has wished that would happen. If vertical progression offers only small advantage, then that does not automatically determine the result of fight, and it will still be about skills.
And as an sidenote, you are generalizing, that people who favors vertical progression are those who kills lower geared players and brags about it. I have personally seen very little that kind of behaviour tbh. This is more like player type kind of thing rather than bound to any progression methods.
@Xzait Yeah sure you could think it that way, but it just does not sound enough intresting or practical. People would need to carry several gear sets with them just to be prepared every kind of scenarios and situations what might cross their journey.
If gearing is only about horizontal progression, it will feel a really underwhelming and unrewarding system. This will also have straight impact for crafting, making both aspects "nice to have sideactivities" at most. That is why I personally hope we will see some vertical progression with both aspects, even the gaps between tiers would be small.
There needs to be rare drops* or someway meaningless loot tables or otherwise there won't be much point to kill any dangerous mobs, creatures or bosses.
*Rare drops can be special resources for crafting, recipes, enchant ingredients, vanity items (trophies, decorations, skins...), pets and mounts [or puppies which can be "craft" (raised and tamed) for pets/mounts]... Basically anything which intrests players, but still keeping player-driven economy and crafting in mind.
@Specter said in People who buy a founders pack today get more than yesterday:
@grofire The devs are aware that with the removal of spell ranks, Fractured might not have enough progression systems to give the players something to work towards. It's something they will monitor during future test phases.
That is good to know.
@Gothix said in People who buy a founders pack today get more than yesterday:
@Tuoni said in People who buy a founders pack today get more than yesterday:
@Gothix Actually I do not need any explanation how horizontal progression works, I am awere of that.
Well it kind of didn't look like it.
Well, I presumed, that people would recognize when someone is exaggerating... I will try to remember next time.
@Tuoni said in People who buy a founders pack today get more than yesterday:
If level 1 ability is enough to gap the power, why even bother to travel around the world and level up more?
Here you were curious about what's the point of learning new abilities, and new variations of those you already have so that's why I explained it in my post above.
You really think I was courious with that question? 
@Gothix said in People who buy a founders pack today get more than yesterday:
@Tuoni if you still claim that horizontal progression doesn't make your character more powerful (having more spells to chose, and more utility) then you apparently do not grasp the power of horizontal progression.
I can not still claim, because I have not claimed so at first place.
Unless someone is a type of player who doesn't want to change decks...
That deck argument was so weird and I am not sure for whom it was actually targeted, so it is better just leave it be. 
@Znirf Okay, ty for the clarification.
@Xzoviac It is not odd at all. Simple discussion between horizontal and vertical progression, and how people feel about those. This is actually generally quite a lot discussed topic and divides heavily opinions. This is not first time to me when I have to weight pros and cons of these two systems. Imo the best solution is found from somewhere between these two extremes, but either one alone does not intrest me that much. I was fine with the system introduced in Spotlight, but with these changes from slight vertical to pure horizontal and done at somepoint somewhere, (still I do not know from where this info can be found) I do not like at all.
@Gothix said in People who buy a founders pack today get more than yesterday:
@Tuoni said in People who buy a founders pack today get more than yesterday:
I am actually getting quite concerned about the whole project atm. In MMORPGs the RPG part and especially character progression is one of the main cores.
You have no reason to be concerned.
Well I could be more precise and mention vertical progression. Horizontal is more like "progression", it does not feel like you are getting forward and actually you are not. So the core of RPG part is not safe.
I am personally very disapointed about those changes towards pure horizontal mentality and how too many aspects feels now pointless without any reasonable progression. It is not just the the abilities, but what I have lately red about gear and crafting too. Nothing appealing there if almost everything is just bland equal. Blaah.
@Zidroc said in WoW Classic is coming:
anyone else absolutely absorbed by WoW classic now?
I am, best game what I have played for long time. 
@Gothix Actually I do not need any explanation how horizontal progression works, I am awere of that.
If that so, this sounds kind of bad news from character progression and exploration point of view. If level 1 ability is enough to gap the power, why even bother to travel around the world and level up more? To get cosmetic spell effects? I don't think so.
I am actually getting quite concerned about the whole project atm. In MMORPGs the RPG part and especially character progression is one of the main cores. If players do not get the feeling of progression, that will not upkeep the intrest of players for long either. Going too far with having only horizontal progress in every aspect can easily have negative impact for longevity of the game. I hope this point has at least thought in the risk management.
@Farlander I would presume it is quite rare to get an attribute up to lvl 25 and maybe it is only possible with race special affinity attribute. The natural gap in attributes is 18, but with race bonuses in specific attributes it can be raised higher, 19 - 21. On top of that, in character creation the higher levels in attributes costs more creation points, which causes you to become weak in some attribute(s) if you gap one or few others. So the character creation kind of favors even and balanced attribute distribution. I would also say that there will be some vertical progression with attributes, but I also think that we are not going to see any huge in there.
@Gothix said in People who buy a founders pack today get more than yesterday:
@Tuoni said in People who buy a founders pack today get more than yesterday:
There will be 3 levels in magic and abilities so we know we have that much vertical progression there.
Not vertical, still horizontal.
Higher rank spells will not grow in power, but will just be modified with different effect, some like modifying gear horizontally.
Next time, check the facts.
"leveling up an ability increases its power – be it a stronger effect, increased duration, reduced cooldown, and more. However, they’re always minor differences.."
Few notions from my last post ^^. In the text is said that 50 talent points is the maximum, but in that talent tree picture there is 24/60 points unlocked.. 
It seams that some talent nodes costs only 1 point and some 3 points. However, I was wondering does those cost 3 points at once or is there 3 tiers and you can spend 1, 2 or 3 points on them?
Anyway to @Roccandil 's concern. We can count from there how much we can spread our talent points. There is 25 points in each branch and 150 points in total, so if we have that 50 points in use, then we can cover 50/150 ~ 33,3%.