Posts made by Tuoni

@Gibbx said in Concerns related to the attributes:

@Tuoni Hmmmm Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game - the party is not key... well throw out the MM part then. Change your PC's key attributes at will... throw out RP part then... what do you have left? I really don't know.
There are no classes Fractured, but yet the forums are rife with "how do I play (fill in my favorite character class)".
Being able to respec your PC undermines the basic tenets of gameplay. If you are bored with the PC you created then roll an alt and play as something else for a while, or perhaps you are bored with the game and need to find something else.

I am glad you asked. MMOs are about people playing with and against each other. However, that does not mean most of the activity should happen in groups. Sure that is important part but a lot of players play mostly solo even they are in guilds, and even the most group oriented players do solo activities daily basis. Group content is usually something which needs time and maybe even planning, so especially at weekdays people have a limited time to play and easily the focus is then in solo activities. Even the most solo oriented players are part of the world and they are interacting with other players even they would not want to group up with anyone. They can e.g. trade stuff and affect to the world and other players lives by gathering or killing mobs/animals. They can even be a prey for PKs and that way be part of the MM. MMORPGs usually offers a lot of solo content even in the most cases the very endgame happens of course via groups and there is no reason to deny that fact.

Attributes are just a part of the RP and the core is in the character progression, talents and skills. Sandbox MMORPGs can be a special case because the base idea is usually in the freedom of choises and classless system. Fractured does not have classes, essentially, but in practice there is, and e.g. races and attributes determines at least the role if not the class. There is some hope with working hybrid builds but unfortunately too many times the best (most effective) solutions is min/max and focus in a specific area.

@Whisper I have not talked about Fractured I have talked about daily quests in general so there is no need to try push those timers in every answer. Those can be discussed separately though.

Answering with nonsense just shows where you stand with your arguments at the moment.

They have new content and I have not claimed otherwise. I bet you wanted to understand the number 2 example wrong so you could argue against it. Okay I will explain it to you more precisely, games uses daily quests so players will repeat the current content day after a day for a weeks and even months. Therefore, developers stretch the current content so they do not have to implement anything else before the next patch is released. If daily quests are not used for this purpose then those are just used to push people login daily. Daily quests are not content which are implemented from players perspective those are purely to drive developers intend.

Even you would like to call daily quest something else or compare those to daily activities, I have made it perfectly clear what I mean by daily quests. I have said that when I mention daily quests I refer to the original meaning back in time of WoW Burning Crusade. Blizzard implemented the original daily quest concept which others have copied since then.

@Whisper said in Your favorite Dailies, or what you would like to see them as.:

With daily quests players are encouraged / forced to login daily basis by the Developers.

Encouraged yes. Only a bad daily would force a player to login. That is what makes it feel like a job.

At first daily quests can feel supportive but with time those will turn to burden and feel like a job. Very basic pattern for daily quests.

The Developers does not need to create new content when they can recycle the old one with repeatable quests.

Absolutely not. I am not even sure where this came from. I haven't ever seen an MMO forego new content and instead just used dailies. I mean, it probably has happened and is a perfect example of what not to do.

So you can say "absolutly not" with assurance based on your unconsciousness? It is a very basic stuff to stretch the current content with help of daily quests (e.g. WoW, FF14, Archaege) so basically people are playing the same content over and over again. Those games which have not used daily quest system to repeat the current content are using at least the example number 1.

Daily quests are not implemented in mind to create interesting content for players which should be kept in mind.

Again. This thread wasn't, "What is the absolute worst type of Dailies, and lets use those ones". It is, "Your favorite dailies, or what you would like to see them as".

Perhaps you should check your original post before making this kind of argument.

"What are some games you think have done them right? What kind of daily quest would you like to see? Or they just an obstacle you would rather not be there?"

And as we are shown they prefer to use an integrated system that has 24 timers (Daily), and weekly (or monthly) maintenance on claims/cities. It's a good system.

These are not daily quests and I have not been against these like I have several times mentioned before.

Have you noticed that rarely any thread gets only positive approach to the topic and it is quite common to have differing opinions. Moreover, you do not have to take it as personal insult if I or anyone else presents critical arguments against the daily quests or systems used behind those.

@Gothix said in Your favorite Dailies, or what you would like to see them as.:

While it may take a day to craft leather, you may for example also steal that leather from someone else, or purchase it, or... (other sources of obtaining it, without cooldown)... You are not forced to do this daily activity, and you can still get that item in another ways.

But this is still not the point, as I said, the main point is psychological effect "daily quests" have on players.

Good points. The beauty of sandbox games is that no one needs to do crafting for example if they do dot want to. They can buy all their stuff and do only open world PvP or dungeons if that is what they want to do and they like the most.

This Psychological point of view is also true. Those players who have more experience of daily quests in other games can easily see red when someone mention or suggest dailies or especially daily quests.

@Whisper said in Your favorite Dailies, or what you would like to see them as.:

@Tuoni said in Your favorite Dailies, or what you would like to see them as.:

That is why I have talked about daily quests so those are not getting mixed up with daily activities. Daily activities are not integrated daily quests do not let the word daily to confuse you. If we think of timed crafting it is needed from economical point of view. Those timers prevents overproduction of certain crafted materials and keeps them more valueable and rare that way. Without any restrictions markets would overflood of almost everything and people would have too easy access to all items and especially for gear.

Dailies are something that happen daily.

A daily quest is a daily. An event that happens daily is a daily.

Just because there is not an NPC that says, "This is a Daily quest" does not make a daily event not Daily.

If it functions daily. The reward is daily. The activity is daily. It is daily. The word, "Daily Quest" doesn't need to be tied to it to magically change its function some how.

You are right that the word "Daily" or "Dailies" are the problematic ones because those can mean either daily activities or daily quests. That is why I would suggest to separate daily quest and daily activity from each other. At least daily quest is very easy to to define as its original meaning; A repeatable quest which can be done once / day. It means exact that and nothing else. I hope we can all agree with that.

Daily quests have two main purposes like already pointed out in this thread:

1. With daily quests players are encouraged / forced to login daily basis by the Developers.
2. The Developers does not need to create new content when they can recycle the old one with repeatable quests.

Those who have not experienced a daily quest rat race might be okay with the system at the beginning. However, in the process of time doing the same quest over and over again is getting boring. At some point players stops to think that is this the reason why I play this game? Every day the playing session starts with the mandatory dailies which can consist of daily quests but maybe on top of that from other daily activities as well. Then after these mandatory tasks you finally have time to go play the game and do activities you want to (if you still have time).

This is why I hope developers (in general) to consider add as less as possible any daily activities to their games. They should trust more on their product and its content rather than adding cheap hooks. Some daily activities e.g. crafting timers are fine because those are also needed from economic point of view and not just to get people online everyday. Those are also very optional which is a good thing. Not everyone should or need to be a crafter and e.g. PvP players can have their stuff from loot drops and some dungeon crawlers buys their gear with ingame currency what they have looted from mobs. In addition, some people can make money via trading, gathering or market flipping and then buy the stuff they need. This is why daily activities like timed crafting are totally fine and what also makes them very different from traditional daily quests.

That is why I have talked about daily quests so those are not getting mixed up with daily activities. Daily activities are not integrated daily quests do not let the word daily to confuse you. If we think of timed crafting it is needed from economical point of view. Those timers prevents overproduction of certain crafted materials and keeps them more valueable and rare that way. Without any restrictions markets would overflood of almost everything and people would have too easy access to all items and especially for gear.

Taxes are needed to run a society but daily quests are not needed to run a game. That is why it was a terrible example.

Yeah fractured has timed crafting which is not a same thing than daily quests. If someone claims something else then he/she does not know what he/she is talking about.

@Whisper Your arguments are getting weird, comparing daily quests for taxes, seriously? Forget about it.

@KairosVal said in Concerns related to the attributes:

@Tuoni said in Concerns related to the attributes:

I was also wondering, that could those attribute points just cost 1 point each? That would make the theorycrafting much more easier and would take away that change you will end up to have one point left which you can not use. At the moment the first two levels costs 3 points, then it decreases to 2 points and after level 15 it raises again to 3 points and eventually to 4 points. Could this system be more straightforward?

If they followed this request it would wreck the game for me, identity and balance wise.

The current system imposes and rewards meaningful tradeoffs. Having the highest base strength (or whatever) possible in the game is a big advantage in a way that isn't obvious if you think of things in a linear way. The real benefits of very high level attributes in a competitive sense grow exponentially. So too should the costs and tradeoffs, in my view.

Okay lets say those levels would cost a different amount points like at the moment. However, imo it would be wise to change this system a little bit so there won't be this possibility to lose a one point. This can be done making levels to cost 1, 2 or 3 points instead of 2, 3 and 4.

@Whisper said in Your favorite Dailies, or what you would like to see them as.:

@Tuoni said in Your favorite Dailies, or what you would like to see them as.:

@Whisper said in Your favorite Dailies, or what you would like to see them as.:

@Tuoni said in Your favorite Dailies, or what you would like to see them as.:

@Whisper said in Your favorite Dailies, or what you would like to see them as.:

There is not such a thing that good daily quest, those simply does not exist, at least from player point of view.

This is an easy point to prove wrong by just pointing at the Poll. 57% of the people who voted disagree with you.

43% dislike Daily Quest. 43% like Daily quest. 14% Don't care either way.

And one person already mentioned that he misclicked the like button and could not change that so the result is biased and most people dislikes daily quests.

Here is something to think about: PC Gamer

I am actually very interested to know why anyone would like to do daily quest? What is good in those from player point of view?

That is one person. It doesn't suddenly account for the difference and make it 100% Dislike it. No matter how you cut it, it shows your statement is unequivocally wrong.

Probably people who have played games without them and have gotten all the content in the game and realized there was nothing left to do but stop playing. Or play once a week with no gain for yourself but just to help others. But it is pretty hard to stay engaged with a game you play once a week for no gain to yourself.

Or people who understand getting people to login daily helps a game a great deal.

If you look closely your answers what is good about daily quests, don't you see any problem there? None of those explains why daily quest are something what players actually want to do. Some people might be okay with daily quests because thay have not experienced those that much but if we put on scale daily quests on other and freedom to go do anything you want what game offers to another, who is that sick bastard who chooses to go with daily quests?

I did answer what is good about daily quest. You just don't want to see the answer. That is okay though. I understand I can't force you to see something you don't want to see but it doesn't change the fact that I gave you the answer on why.

You answered yes but the quality was pretty low and none of those where actually why someone would want to do daily quest and enjoy at the same time. In one example you have done all game content and after that you are ready to go for daily quests, as last option. In another one you would go to do daily quest because you want to help others... mmm what? How you even help others via daily quests? And the last one is every gamers dream, they want to do daily quest to help the game.. That does not make you like the daily quests itself you just do those because you feel like you are helping the developers, and at start you might, unless you get bored and you quit.

If the game offers interesting content in various areas people will login anyway and if they can go to do what they really enjoy instead of a daily quests they will stick with the game much longer. If you think the content what e.g. Fractured offers gathering, crafting, farming, building, trading, OWPvP, sieges, dungeons, asteroids, skill progressions, exploring... every single aspect of the game is better option to spend time in the game than daily quest in every way.

@Whisper said in Your favorite Dailies, or what you would like to see them as.:

@Tuoni said in Your favorite Dailies, or what you would like to see them as.:

@Whisper said in Your favorite Dailies, or what you would like to see them as.:

There is not such a thing that good daily quest, those simply does not exist, at least from player point of view.

This is an easy point to prove wrong by just pointing at the Poll. 57% of the people who voted disagree with you.

43% dislike Daily Quest. 43% like Daily quest. 14% Don't care either way.

And one person already mentioned that he misclicked the like button and could not change that so the result is biased and most people dislikes daily quests.

Here is something to think about: PC Gamer

I am actually very interested to know why anyone would like to do daily quest? What is good in those from player point of view?

That is one person. It doesn't suddenly account for the difference and make it 100% Dislike it. No matter how you cut it, it shows your statement is unequivocally wrong.

Probably people who have played games without them and have gotten all the content in the game and realized there was nothing left to do but stop playing. Or play once a week with no gain for yourself but just to help others. But it is pretty hard to stay engaged with a game you play once a week for no gain to yourself.

Or people who understand getting people to login daily helps a game a great deal.

If you look closely your answers what is good about daily quests, don't you see any problem there? None of those explains why daily quest are something what players actually want to do. Some people might be okay with daily quests because thay have not experienced those that much but if we put on scale daily quests on other and freedom to go do anything you want what game offers to another, who is that sick bastard who chooses to go with daily quests?

@Whisper said in Your favorite Dailies, or what you would like to see them as.:

There is not such a thing that good daily quest, those simply does not exist, at least from player point of view.

This is an easy point to prove wrong by just pointing at the Poll. 57% of the people who voted disagree with you.

43% dislike Daily Quest. 43% like Daily quest. 14% Don't care either way.

And one person already mentioned that he misclicked the like button and could not change that so the result is biased and most people dislikes daily quests.

Here is something to think about: PC Gamer

I am actually very interested to know why anyone would like to do daily quest? What is good in those from player point of view?

@Whisper said in Your favorite Dailies, or what you would like to see them as.:

@Tuoni said in Your favorite Dailies, or what you would like to see them as.:

Archeage Unchained is a good example of sandbox MMORPG which chose to use daily quest system to keep players busy and login daily. After few months a lot of players have already quit and one of the main reasons (perhaps even the #1) has been the daily quests. Therefore, Archeage is a good example why daily quests should be used as less as possible. Moreover, sandbox games should be more careful because daily quests fights against players freedom of choise and general nature of sandboxes.

If the people are being forced to do Daily Quest then it is already one of the worst kinds of daily quest.

It is actually enough that people feel like they have to do content they do not want to. The worst part of daily quests is that none of them are interesting and even the best ones are just a somewhat bad. Games should focus to offer interesting content and wide activity possibilities rather than implementing daily login hooks. That is what gamers accually appreciate.

No one here said, "What are the worst daily quest you can imagine, and should we put those ones into the game" Lol.

There is not such a thing that good daily quest, those simply does not exist, at least from player point of view.

@Manaia said in Concerns related to the attributes:

@Tuoni Some people like putting in the time and effort of planning a character, others would rather be able to correct their lack of planning in-game. It appears we're on opposite sides of this. And character identity is NOT a small problem in an RPG. You don't have to be a role player to still appreciate character identity.

Attributes are a small part of the character identity and from RPG point of view e.g. character progression is the core. On top of that, if the attribute reroll is optional, then everybody should be happy.

And yes, once all the knowledge is attained, it's 100% possible to swap classes every 10 minutes depending on how attribute resetting is done. Also, just because you aren't min/maxed to USE a skillset doesn't mean you CAN'T use it. Which again, boils down to a jack-of-all-trades of having balanced stats vs min/maxing.

Sure you can play as a mage with 8 in intelligence but I am sure you will be quite uneffective. In addition, Imagine how squishy would be a tank with 10 in strength and constitution, someone gives a bad glance and his dead. And what it comes to that jack of all trades, like mentioned before most players do not know what they end up to do in the game and what kind of role they will be most interested to play with. That is why character creation stage is a very dangerous place to lock (in practice) players in certain class and role choises. In themeparks this would be okay, but in sandbox games this is something that should be taken account.

One solution to address this would be to make it a gradual thing; remove one attribute point to go into an attribute pool (so stat weights still apply) and being able to add one point a week or something. Then from a character identity standpoint it's a transition and effort, not as simple as "lol this build sux new build plx" and you're completely different.

I am pretty sure that those who cares of the character identity from attribute change point of view are a niche. Attribute points transaction system like you described could work, however, it would feel really bad to wait this final transaction happen after weeks or even months. So I prefer the system what Eurav mentioned which most likely what devs have already planned. I am not asking to have a chance to change the points everytime I want to even I would not be against that either. Some kind of cooldown could be nice like once in the month or something like that. The final decision of this matter should be based on player feedback and what is evaluated to be the most reasonable (perhaps compromised) solution to minimize player frustration and guarantee customer satisfaction.

If they don't have attribute resets, just make a balanced character if you don't want to knowledge grind on alts Enchanting can help you hit those higher level stats.

Or if they do not have attribute reset there is also other option some people will grab, it is quit.

@Gibbx MMORPGs are not just about parties and that is actually quite common but also biased argument. It is also quite weird to presume that people should settle to play a specific role if they are bored or they want to try something else out. In matter of fact, this attribute matter has very little or nothing to do with group content.

@Roccandil said in Concerns related to the attributes:

The more I play Alpha, the more the attribute system feels out of place (for reasons already described here). I'd consider the following:

• Use Albion's "you are what you wear" system, such that all gear innately provides attributes.
• Varying races get an innate multiplier to certain attributes, or just flat bonuses or penalties.
• Merge attributes into the talent tree system. Maybe even have unique racial talent trees (my favorite option! ).

This would be a really good option, and with gear and talent tree nodes players can affect on their characters attributes (positive and negative way). Race modifiers can still be there but at least then the gaps between attributes would be more bearable without extra differencies because of the character creation. At the moment we have a system where the character creation is much closer to themepark than sandbox MMORPG.

Archeage Unchained is a good example of sandbox MMORPG which chose to use daily quest system to keep players busy and login daily. After few months a lot of players have already quit and one of the main reasons (perhaps even the #1) has been the daily quests. Therefore, Archeage is a good example why daily quests should be used as less as possible. Moreover, sandbox games should be more careful because daily quests fights against players freedom of choise and general nature of sandboxes.

@Rokesh Even Fractured is few months behind the original schedule, Dynymight Studio's development pace has been quite good. So I would say we are going to see Beta and without facing any fundamental problems also the release.

@Manaia said in Concerns related to the attributes:

@Tuoni said in Concerns related to the attributes:

Like I already answered for Mudz, this a sandbox game not a themepark were rerolling characters should be a core. Think all the new players who have not tested the game in test phases and how much mistakes they will make at the character creation stage. They do not have the knowledge what would be the best solution or what they will actully end up to do in the game. And if I think this from my personal point of view, lets say I have used most of my points for strenght and constitution, and then I want to reroll for a caster after a year. I am quite sure that I do not want to start a new character just because of that. SBI did this mistake in Albion Online where it was made too hard to change the "class" and role or at least it was behind a long grind. Now they have made a change where you can drain the progression from a spear for example and move that to another weapon. This was a pure quality of life change to prevent players to quit the game because respeccin was made too hard.

My biggest problem with free availability to reroll is you lose character identity and choice and just have a blank template. To me, that breaks a big part of any RPG. If you can just apply a blank template to any character, why have more than one character at that point? Or why have more than three if you want to try one of each race? Choice -should- matter. If you want to be a jack of all trades, put 13-14 points into every stat and you'd be perfectly able to pull that off WITHOUT breaking character identity. But if you're rolling around in full plate mail, sword and board, and the tankiest dude ever - you shouldn't be able to be in full cloth and the übernuts caster in 10 minutes.

Of course, just my opinion of an aging gamer that doesn't need instant gratification/change because of a choice I made earlier

Even from RPG point of view we are talking quite small problem when compared how much QoL the attribute reset will offer to the players. If someone changes his/her attributes no-ones butt is hurt and those who want to roleplay are not forced to do so. So who loses here? That is right, no-one.

In Fractured players can not instantly change from class to another and they still need to unlock the proper skills. Therefore, it would be quite nice to use all the skillset you have unlocked and not just those which goes fine with your character creation attribute lottery.

I would say that in most cases that three characters is more than enough. I guess many people wants to test out humans, beastmen and demons. Some people might want to play in different guilds or they have a character with good and bad reputation. I can imagine that I will have a criminal alt which I use for ganking and other open world activities even my main character would be a law-abiding citizen (in Syndesia ofc). However, even I can imagine how some people uses multiple characters I would personally prefer just one, like New world will have only one character / realm / account.

@Farlander said in Questions and observation on the lack of depth for people who like crafting to define their character:

With the game being full loot and losing all your gear upon death, I don't see alot of people investing time into making top end loot for themselves. With the current system for travelling most people will be dying far away from their bodies. I would expect your body to have a small timer to return to it to gather your loot. Even if you do get back to it all the gear is damaged. How much damage I haven't seen. I also haven't seen much on repairing. With all that in consideration I see alot of people dressing like the early days of UO, basic gear that you can throw away. I'm sure there will be those that want the high end stuff and those will be the guys getting chased by the pks lol.

Even Fracuted has a full loot rules we are going to see how people runs in open world from the best gear to worst and anything possible between. At the beginning players will of course run more with the basic gear which is easily replaceable but after time passes better and better gear will become easier and easier to replace. For individual players this will take more time and they are more careful what they wear in the open world, however, guilds will have at some point so much gear in storage that they can use what gear they want to. If they loose their stuff they simply go get new ones and are good to go. I can see how the biggest guilds are easily running with the best gear in the open world and I promise that those people are the most dreaded PKs and chasers and not vice versa.